Bodybuilding Forums

Sup guys! I would just like to ask which is better, Optimum 100% Gold Whey or MuscleTech Nitro Core Hardcore Pro Series Whey? Thanks. Planning to buy one.

Both are good Whey proteins. I personally use Optimum 100% Gold Whey but nothing wrong with MuscleTech.

: Advanced Nitro-Tech Hardcore Pro Series is now loaded with 25 percent more protein than the previous version and delivers 11 grams of leucine and 13 grams of additional BCAAs with every maxed-out daily dose! In addition, a key ingredient in Nitro-Tech Hardcore Pro Series features Micro-Diffuse™ Technology, designed to increase the dissolution of a critical anabolic agent by drastically reducing the size of the particles. Driven by the anabolic musclebuilding power of SynthePro®, and featuring the state-of-the-art blends Nitroxen® and Insulogen®, Nitro-Tech® Hardcore Pro Series is truly a scientifically advanced musclebuilding protein formula. In fact, subjects using the core formula in Nitro-Tech Hardcore Pro Series packed on incredibly more lean muscle than subjects using whey protein. The power of Nitrogen Retention Technology is illustrated by the incredible muscle gains experienced by subjects using the core formula in Nitro-Tech Hardcore Pro Series along with a hardcore training program. Just check out the study results! ‡In a six-week, double-blind study involving 36 test subjects with at least three years of weight-training experience, not only did subjects gain more muscle, subjects using the core formula in Nitro-Tech® Hardcore Pro Series also jacked up their bench press more than subjects using whey protein. :

Is this claims about nitro core hardcore pro series true?

Thats called marketing.......our WHEY is better then everyone elses so you should buy ours.

Thanks man!

whey protein derived from milk is better than whey protein derived from cheese.
Everything you see for sale is derived from cheese.
Here is forum post by the owner of www.ProteinFactory.com. I like some of their products, hate their banners and cheezy web prescence, but boy the guy makes a lot of sense quoting some important studies.
The link is here:http://www.proteinfactory.com/pfboards/t3685-4/ and you have to scroll through it to find the start of the below. It goes and goes and is the best thing you could read about protein.

Starts here:
Here is an article by Philip Connolly that he wrote for CNP about creating the best protein. He talks about Native whey Protein. As far as studies showing the bioavailability of native whey vs. cheese whey. its going to be the same thing. The main difference between the two is the LEVELS of protein peptides: like lactoferrin and Immunoglobulins. Always look at the numbers like protein percentage and peptide percentages.

Phil Connolly, CNP Professional

When we set out to formulate the world's best protein powders, we knew that we had to come up with some new twists if we were truly going to develop a protein powder that was better than everyone else's protein. There were already some pretty good proteins on the market. So how could we make better proteins? The answer seemed obvious, if you want to make the world's best protein powders, use the best raw material proteins available and make sure that the body uses them better.
Micellar Casein

We already had access to the finest casein component - natural structure, micellar casein. This is casein as you would find it in milk. This is casein in the structure that nature intended. This is casein that one can use for building a stronger, healthier body. Micellar casein is in just the right conformation that our bodies can efficiently digest the protein to yield metabolically bioactive peptides. These bioactive peptides, when detected, stimulate a whole cascade of anabolic hormonal production in the body. In addition, micellar casein will provide a sustained release of amino acids into the bloodstream over extended periods of time. The body cannot manufacture or repair muscle tissue unless amino acids are in ready supply in the blood (and it's a good idea to always have plenty available). In addition, the casein micelle structure contains bound calcium and phosphorous in large quantities that are efficiently absorbed into the blood to help build strong bones. In fact, the calcium and phosphorous, in the complex chelated form as they exist in the casein micelle, are excellent for strengthening bones compared to other forms of supplemental calcium and phosphorous. That is why dairy product marketers are allowed to claim that milk is good for your bones. Every dedicated athlete understands that as muscle mass is increased, it is necessary to increase skeletal density (bone strength) to support the extra muscle mass. A common mistake for weekend warriors is not to consume enough calcium and phosphorous for skeletal support. Consuming true micellar casein remedies that problem. All of the above mentioned properties contribute to the anabolic nature of micellar casein. Regular casein or caseinates have not been shown to produce the same high level of bioactivity or sustained time release and, therefore, are not considered as anabolic.
Whey Protein - The Debate of Undenatured vs Denatured

Now, we needed to find the right whey protein. We weren't, however, interested in just any old whey protein. We wanted to incorporate the healthiest, most anabolic whey protein available. Anytime you see a magazine article or an advertisement detailing the health / anabolic benefits of whey protein, the majority of the claims made in support of the health benefits of whey protein are derived from the definitive authority on which they all rely - a scientific paper that was published in 1991 in Clinical Investigative Medicine (Volume 14, pages 296-309), written by Gustavo Bounous and Phil Gold (You have probably seen this often quoted paper many times referred to as Bounous et. al.). This scientific paper is considered to be the bible for whey protein marketing. Gustavo Bounous is a Doctor of Medicine and he wanted to study the effects of whey protein on the human immune system. He enlisted the assistance of Phil Gold, a professor of Chemistry at a nearby University. Bounous had been studying whey proteins and their immunoenhancing (ability to support the immune system) properties. In the midst of his studies, he received a new shipment of whey protein (from the same supplier). In the 1991 paper, Bounous admits that "a recent observation has revealed to us that the described biological activity of whey protein concentrate ... is actually dependent on the undenatured conformation of the ingested proteins".. He then goes on to describe how the "discovery was made accidentally".. He had been using a certain commercial brand of whey protein in his studies. When he received a new shipment of the whey protein, he found that the new shipment of whey protein "failed to exhibit the immunoenhancing effect previously described while exhibiting the same nutritional efficiency".. Both Bounous and Gold theorized that the structural conformation of whey protein would determine its bioactivity. They designed a study to "define the effect of changes in molecular conformation of whey protein concentrate on the immune response and glutathione formation of the host".. Just so that we're all clear on the meaning of their study - when they talk about changes in molecular conformation of whey protein concentrate, they are talking about denaturation of whey protein concentrate. Webster's Dictionary defines denaturation as:

To modify the molecular structure of (as a protein or DNA) especially by heat, acid, alkali, or ultraviolet radiation so as to destroy or diminish some of the original properties and especially the specific biological activity.

In Chemistry, denaturing a protein is defined as changing its molecular conformation (structure) by heat, acid, alkali, or radiation. So, we can confidently say that when Bounous and Gold designed an experiment to study "the effects of changes in molecular conformation of whey protein concentrate on the immune response and glutathione formation", they were designing an experiment to study the effects of whey protein concentrate denaturation on the bioactivity of whey protein.

As part of the experimental design, they studied commercially available whey protein concentrates and isolates from Europe, New Zealand, Canada, and the USA. These whey proteins all had one thing in common - they were manufactured from cheese whey. Bounous and Gold then had a near perfect whey protein specially made for them in a laboratory in Quebec. They called this near perfect whey protein, Product X. It was their experimental design to compare the commercially available whey proteins, made from cheese whey, to a near perfect whey protein, Product X for bioactivity. As a control for the experiment, they also compared everything to casein (because casein is reputed to have little immune supporting bioactivity).

The results of their study showed that whey protein does indeed possess bioactive properties that are anabolic - but only Product X, their specially manufactured whey protein displayed significant bioactivity. They stated that "immune response ... is highest in mice fed Product X".. Results of the experiment also showed that Liver and Heart glutathione content was significantly higher in the Product X group than other groups. In fact, the casein group had the same heart glutathione content as did the cheese whey protein groups (not very good for cheese whey, huh?). The authors concluded:

"The current findings indicate that the previously described biological activity of dietary whey protein is restricted to the UNDENATURED form of the protein and it is not related to its nutritional efficiency."

Translation so that we can all understand it: The results of the experiment showed that the much desired biological activity of whey protein is limited to a totally undenatured whey protein - Product X. The cheese whey proteins did not exhibit the desired biological activity.

Ok, I'll copy and paste the next part:
and

"Indeed specific thermolabile proteins, crucial to biological activity of the protein mixture, may be involved. In addition, partial unfolding of some molecules, UNDETECTED BY SOLUBILITY CHANGES, could initiate further unfolding and/or other biologically significant alterations during the process of digestion in the gastrointestinal tract." Thermolabile means those proteins that are easily denatured by heat.

Translation so that we can all understand it: Those proteins that are easily denatured by heat are the most crucial to whey protein's biological activity. In spite of the fact that a whey protein may seem water soluble (hence, the false claims of"undenatured"), some of the proteins will be partially unfolded (not enough to affect water solubility but enough to cause a change in molecular structure - denaturation). This will decrease biological activity significantly.

and

Our Product X whey protein concentrate was prepared in the most lineant (sic) way compatible with accepted standards of safety with regard to bacterial contamination." They then go on to discuss the commercially available cheese whey proteins. "Although the proteins contained in the concentrates from other sources examined were MOSTLY in undenatured form, as indicated by the relatively high solubility of the concentrates, the content of serum albmin and immunoglobulins in these mixtures is below the level apparently necessary to produce a biological activity. These very thermolabile proteins are denatured, hence, precipitated and partially lost from whey when high pasteurization temperatures are utilized. Conversely, the relatively high concentrations of the thermosensitive serum albumin and immunoglobulins resulting from low pasteurization of milk in Product X, may reflect more closely the pattern of raw milk.

Translation so that we can all understand it: Product X was prepared using legally acceptable, low temperature pasteurization (63o C for 30 minutes) to kill harmful bacteria. Even though the cheese whey protein concentrates appeared to be MOSTLY in undenatured form (as measured by water solubility), they were missing important bioactive fractions of protein - serum albumin and immunoglobulins. What happened to them? How could they be denatured and yet the whey protein still seems water soluble? They were denatured by heat and acid - the heat of normal legally required pasteurization techniques (72o C for at least 15 seconds). Not only were these valuable proteins denatured by the heat, but they were partially lost from the commercially available whey protein powders through precipitation during production. In contrast, Product X contained higher levels of the bioactive serum albumin and immunoglobulin fractions because of the lower pasteurization temperatures employed and it more closely matched the protein pattern of raw milk.

And their final conclusion:

"In conclusion, our data lend support to the concept that the concentration of serum albumin and possibly immunoglobulins, as well as the undenatured conformation of the molecules are crucial factors in determining the biological activity of dietary whey protein concentrate."

Translation so that we can all understand it: Our results show that if a whey protein has been denatured, even just a small part, it will not have good biological activity.

To summarize: Bounous and Gold proved that only a totally undenatured whey protein (better termed a "native" whey protein because it would be in its natural, raw milk-like state) would provide the bioactive properties of immune system support and glutathione production that people advertise today. They even proved that whey proteins made from cheese whey did not display the desirable effects because they are actually missing large amounts of the valuable, bioactive whey protein fractions - even though they have excellent solubility in water.

Amazingly, when the paper was published (and still to this day), every marketer of whey protein in sports nutrition began to advertise their whey protein as having the bioactive properties of Product X. They quoted the Bounous and Gold paper (and still do). They did this in spite of the fact that every one of them purchased whey protein that came from cheese manufacture. Most of them were probably using the very whey proteins that Bounous and Gold had concluded did not contain bioactivity. Now, let's get real! Either they didn't understand what they were reading (that's a scary thought when one considers that they are "scientifically" formulating protein powders) or they didn't care and intended to misrepresent a scientific paper, thereby pulling a fast one on the consumer. Today we have certain whey protein marketers claiming that their whey protein doesn't come from cheese whey (at least they get the message) - it comes from acid casein production. They claim that their process is "gentle". If cheese whey is bad, then acid casein whey is worse! In acid casein manufacture the pasteurization temperatures are the same as for cheese whey and the pH changes are greater. More of the valuable bioactive whey protein fractions are lost in acid casein whey than are lost in cheese whey.

why not? Here is the rest of that mini-thread.

Being a biochemist, when I read the Bounous and Gold paper, I recognized the causes of denaturation of the whey proteins that Bounous and Gold couldn't. Remember? Denaturation of a protein is defined as a change in the molecular structure by heat, addition of acid or alkali, or by radiation. Cheese whey receives every damaging treatment except for radiation. Cheese whey is heat pasteurized twice at 72o C for at least 15 seconds - and - it is exposed to significant acid - and it is also exposed to alkali.

Let's start with pasteurizing temperatures. Why is 72o C so different from the lower, yet still legal, pasteurizing temperature of 63o C for 30 minutes? For the simple reason that the "thermolabile" (heat sensitive bioactive proteins) whey proteins that concerned Bounous and Gold start to denature at 64o C. We can stay below the denaturation temperatures of the most heat sensitive fractions of whey protein by pasteurizing at 63o C for 30 minutes. When milk or whey is pasteurized at 72o C for at least 15 seconds, those heat sensitive fractions of whey protein start to unfold (change molecular shape) and, therefore, lose their desired bioactivity. There are those in the dairy industry who will claim that pasteurizing at 72o C for 15 seconds has been shown to cause minimal denaturation. That may be true - but what does "minimal" damage mean? Do the heat sensitive proteins survive intact? What happens if whey proteins are exposed to two of these heat treatments in a row? Data collected thus far shows at least partial damage (some denaturation) to the heat sensitive whey protein fractions from one 72o C pasteurization treatment.

Bounous and Gold found significant damage (significant denaturation) in the whey proteins from cheese whey that they studied. Why? Because cheese whey proteins have been heat pasteurized twice (exposed twice to damaging heat) and they have also been exposed to damaging acid and alkali. You see, when manufacturing cheese, you must start with sterile milk. You can't have unwanted bacteria in the milk because they may cause off flavours in the cheese. Therefore, pasteurization of the milk prior to cheese manufacture is required. This would be the first heat treatment. To manufacture cheese, specific bacteria are then added to the sterile milk and allowed to multiply and grow. As they grow and multiply, these bacteria produce significant amounts of acid (significant enough to cause a change in molecular structure of other bioactive whey proteins such as lactoferrin - denaturation). Once the milk becomes sufficiently acid in pH, an enzyme is added to the milk and a cheese curd precipitates out, leaving a foul smelling, yellow-green colored liquid that we call "whey". This liquid whey contains about 6% to 7% solids of which only 11% is protein (about 0.7% of the liquid whey). To make a whey protein concentrate or isolate from this liquid whey, it is necessary to ultrafilter, and/or microfilter, and/or nanofilter the whey. All three are filtering processes - the difference is in the size of the microscopic holes used. If the holes are sized correctly, the proteins (large molecules) can't fit through the filter holes, while all of the smaller molecules (undesirable lactose, mineral ash, etc) pass through the holes and are separated from the protein. Simple right? It would seem so, but there are a few obstacles to overcome to make the microscopic filtering proceed smoothly. First, the liquid cheese whey is loaded with the bacteria that were allowed to grow and multiply so that the cheese could be manufactured. These bacteria are at least as large as the protein molecules and even larger. If liquid cheese whey is filtered with these bacteria present, the resultant whey protein would contain as much, or more, bacteria as it does whey protein. The cheese bacteria have to be destroyed before whey protein can be filtered. How are the bacteria destroyed? With another heat pasteurization step at 72o C (the second, damaging heat treatment step). Now the cheese whey is sterile but it does contain some insoluble particles (probably partially denatured protein, some tiny cheese curds, and even insoluble milk minerals such as calcium phosphate). These insoluble particles will "blind" (plug) the microscopic holes in the filters, thereby rendering the filtering process useless. It is, therefore, necessary to remove all insoluble particles from the liquid whey prior to filtering. This is accomplished by adding alkali (denaturation) in most cases and adjusting the pH of the whey to a level that would cause most of the insoluble calcium phosphate to become soluble. The liquid whey is then passed through high speed centrifuges (known as clarifiers) to remove any remaining insoluble particles (this would include any whey proteins that were denatured by the two heat treatments, the acid, and/or the alkali). No wonder, the whey proteins that we see from cheese whey are water soluble! They have been centrifuged during processing to ensure maximum water solubility. What was removed during centrifugation? According to Bounous and Gold: significant portions of the bioactive whey proteins.

As another, more empirical method, for proving the heat denaturation of whey proteins made from cheese whey, we can offer the following example:

When you fry an egg, what happens? You start with breaking an eggshell and dropping the contents into a frying pan. Initially, the egg white (a 12% protein solution) isn't actually white - it's clear isn't it? This is the egg albumen (protein) in undenatured form. As heat is added, the clear egg white turns an opaque white - the protein denatures. A sulfur smell develops (because the metabolically valuable amino acid, cysteine, contains sulfur and as the cysteine is being heat degraded it releases sulfur). Any time you detect a sulfur smell in a protein factory, you can be sure that cysteine is being degraded (a sure sign of protein denaturation). Walk into any cheese factory in the world and visit the whey processing area. You will smell a strong sulfur smell. When you smell sulfur in a cheese factory, you can be sure that the high cysteine whey proteins (serum albumin and immunoglobulins - the bioactive ones) have been denatured because they are releasing sulfur. This is just more practical evidence that whey proteins manufactured from cheese whey have been heat damaged.

What makes Product X of Bounous and Gold so different? That's what we wanted to know. After a long search, we found an obscure paper written by Phil Gold in which he described the process used to manufacture Product X. Product X was manufactured directly from skim milk - not from whey as the starting material. The process utilized a low temperature, long hold pasteurization treatment (63o C for 30 minutes), to keep the heat treatment below the denaturation temperature of the heat sensitive bioactive proteins, and no acid or alkali had been added to the milk at any point in the process. They had avoided denaturation of the proteins as much as was humanly possible. Looking at the process they used to make Product X, we thought that it would be possible to find a factory somewhere in the world that would be willing to manufacture a whey protein by the process. You would think that a large number of factories would be willing to manufacture by the process, but it is the low temperature, long hold pasteurization that stops them. To hold milk for 30 minutes during pasteurization slows a dairy factory down to a crawl. They have all been designed and constructed to pasteurize milk for 15 seconds at 72 o C. They cannot work out how to pasteurize for 30 minutes. We sought the assistance of a friend who had knowledge of every whey protein manufacturing factory in the world. We asked him to find a factory that would manufacture a whey protein concentrate by the process as outlined by Phil Gold (a copy of Product X of the paper by Bounous and Gold). He found one factory - only one - that was willing to manufacture by the process.

Our whey protein comes from that factory. It is as close as anyone can get to Product X in a large scale commercial ultrafiltration factory. Sure, we have to pay more for it because the factory runs slower and we don't start with a waste product (like cheese whey), but Bounous and Gold have already shown that is it significantly superior in bioactive properties to any whey protein made from cheese whey for the reasons outlined above. And now, you should understand that, the next time you see an advertisement for whey protein, it doesn't matter how much they want to talk about the excellent water solubility of their whey protein - IF IT COMES FROM CHEESE WHEY IT HAS UNDERGONE DENATURATION. It can have excellent water solubility, an excellent amino acid profile, and yet, no bioactivity. Sure, we all consume protein for an excellent amino acid profile so that we can make lean tissue gains. It is the bioactivity of a protein, however, that will provide the extra, winner's edge for greater gains in health and lean tissue by stimulating a cascade of anabolic processes.