Bodybuilding Forums

Hi, everyone. I'm new to the forum, though I've been enjoying Mark's insights for quite some time. I'm looking to get feedback on my daily food plan.

Background information: I'm a 20-year old female, weigh around 137lbs (not sure of my body fat percentages), who lifts weights regularly (around4-5 days/week) and does bi-weekly cardio. Typically, I have a fairly primal diet (expounded on www.marksdailyapple.com), but in the last week, I've decided to pick up M.A.N.S. again, which I have experimented with in the past--the only real difference with my so-called primal eating and M.A.N.S. is the carb allotment..ordinarily, I may eat 50-60g of carbs/day.

My "problem": While I love the whole, natural foods I eat, I find that I'm kind of half-hungry or not completely satisfied most of the time. I wonder if I am eating too much of something, not enough of something else, if I am scheduling my meals at the wrong times or perhaps all of the above. I realize that I tend to eat a few large meals instead of several smaller ones, but frankly, I just don't have it in me to sit down to a small plate of food without going back for seconds and thirds.

Okay, here's what I ate today:

-Breakfast @ 9:30a.m.: batch of almond flour pancakes (2 eggs, 1c almond flour) with melted butter and black coffee.

-Following a fairly heavy deadlift workout @2:30, at 3:45 I had a post-workout shake of 27g of whey protein with water and the last of the coffee I had made that morning.

-Dinner @ 6:00p.m.: 1/2 head of cauliflower with melted butter and a 7-8oz rib steak that I baked in the oven.

Though I usually don't like to "snack" after dinner, at around 8:30, this time I found myself back in the kitchen eating celery and almond butter (around 1Tbsp), about 1oz of walnuts and a handful or two of grated cheese.

According to Fitday.com, I was at around 1,800-2,000 calories for the day prior to my snaking escapade, with around 124g of fat, 128g of protein and approximately 30g of carbs. My appetite basically knows no bounds and I'm working on becoming aware of when I am *actually* full opposed to when I truly need more food. At this point, though, I really can't tell and am just looking for the best way to continue to build muscle without packing on the pounds (and even losing 5 or less lbs of fat along the way)!

Thanks, guys, in advance for your insights.

P.S. If any women on the forum know how to correctly measure one's waist and hips for the body fat measurements, I would appreciate your clarifications. Typical online calculators call for measurements of the neck, waist and hips (in addition to height, of course) and it's unclear to me where--specifically--we are supposed to measure.

Thanks, again.

First off let me just tell you I'm a male. Okay I think it's important to calculate your dietary needs before you can set out a meal plan if thats what you would like to do. Mark has a usefull page on how many calories you need to build muscle and I dont know how accurate any measurments will be but it will give you a good idea as to how much you should be eating.
Just look for it on the righthand side of one of marks pages.

I have had the same problem as you where I eat and find I want more and could happily eat until the cows come home but I now try to think of it like this, if I'm getting enough protein and fat throughout the day in each meal then I shouldn't be hungry so if I find I do want to eat it's probably due to me being bored or not knowing what hungry really is. I have found recently that certain foods will trigger me off and I'll go overboard with them so I'm trying to refrain from eating them, nuts mainly, anykind of nut butter and I'll lose count as to how much I've eaten so if you find theres something that triggers you off cut it out for a while to see if it helps, nuts have added carbs so maybe this also triggers an insulin reaction.

Like I said I would definatly try and figure out your calorie needs because even though on low carb calories do count, if you have too many you can get fat, I'm sure some will be stored even in ketosis. I've also noticed your meals are like 4-5 hours apart , maybe trying to have smaller meals would be benificial, I'd love nothing more than to sit down to massive meals but if I do I wont be helping myself. You'll speed up that metablism with more frequent meals so as far as far as fat loss goes maybe it would be benificial plus you would be giving your muscles a more constant stream of protein which I think is better than 3 big meals where the protein may get wasted.

Oh and one thing about measurements, I had the same problem as not knowing where to measure but I now measure about 1 inch above the navel and I sometimes take 3 measurements, 1 inch above, over the navel and 1 below.

Hope that helps to some extent.

WHO AM I wrote:I now measure about 1 inch above the navel and I sometimes take 3 measurements, 1 inch above, over the navel and 1 below.

For a woman, it's the smallest part of the torso, so you can't just say 1" above the navel or whatever. The smallest part of my torso is practically up to my bra strap! Just put the tape measure around you and slide it around until you've got it snug around a place where it can't slide up or down, and that's the narrowest part. For your neck, it should be just below your adam's apple (of course, this is less prominent in women!) and it should slope down slightly in the front. For your hips, it should be around the fullest part. Just look at yourself in the mirror until you find the place where you're biggest around and measure there. You might want to make sure that you take a couple of measurements in case you can't eyeball whether your butt sticks out more or the width of your hips is the big part. For example, the most prominent part of my butt may look like the biggest circumference, but in actuality because I have saddlebags, the biggest circumference is about even with, well, the point at which my legs are joined. Jus slide the tape around until it's snug at a place that it can easily slide up or down anywhere in your hip region and be loose. That'll be the biggest part.

hfox wrote:P.S. If any women on the forum know how to correctly measure one's waist and hips for the body fat measurements, I would appreciate your clarifications. Typical online calculators call for measurements of the neck, waist and hips (in addition to height, of course) and it's unclear to me where--specifically--we are supposed to measure.

Don't worry about it too much; it's not terribly accurate anyhow. If you can't get a hydrostatic weighing or DEXA or Bod Pod reading, then your next most accurate method will be skinfold calipers. You can buy a cheap one off Amazon for about $9, or you might be able to get it done at your local gym, university, or personal trainer.

Once you know your lean body mass, you can calculate your protein needs and your BMR. You didn't mention your height, so I can't really guess at your body mass index, which isn't a very useful piece of information, but absent a body fat reading it's better than nothing, I guess.

I am 5' 7" and weigh about 141, so we can use me as a rough estimate for you until we get more accurate numbers. My protein needs are 126 grams per day, so you're probably in the ballpark for protein there. If you have more lean mass than I do (entirely possible), your protein needs will be higher and your caloric needs will too. I maintain my weight at 1750 calories per day, so you're probably at a good calorie level for adding muscle, assuming you're getting enough protein and your workouts place muscle-building demands on your body.

hfox wrote:According to Fitday.com, I was at around 1,800-2,000 calories for the day prior to my snaking escapade, with around 124g of fat, 128g of protein and approximately 30g of carbs.

30g of carbs, or 30 grams of NET carbs?

I know you prefer to eat less frequent, larger meals, but your body has no mechanism for storing protein, so you must infuse protein more frequently if you want to keep building. Maybe cut your post-workout protein to 20 grams, and use 7 grams prior to your workout. 5 hours is too long to go w/o food. Similarly, 8:30 is exactly the time you should be eating something if you eat dinner at 6. Try eating half of your steak at dinner, then eating half at 8:30 with your celery and almond butter. Celery's a really good choice for a snack!

Truly though, that sounds like a LOT of nut calories, what with a whole cup of almond flour, then nut butter and walnuts at night. I pretty much can't eat nuts, because like a lot of people, it sets me off and I can easily eat 600+ calories' worth! Also, cauliflower is a pretty high-carb choice if it's going to be your only vegetable, and it's probably not enough to meet your vitamin/mineral needs. What does Fitday tell you about your vitamin/mineral intake? Are you meeting your RDAs, even for potassium? That one's always the hardest for me. They don't call me The Spinach Assassin for nothing.

I know what you mean about finding it difficult to sit down to a small plate and not go back for seconds or thirds. I can't eat until I'm full. I have to eat until I'm "not hungry." You just have to tell yourself that you're going to stop and that if you're hungry in an hour you can eat another small meal, then walk away and busy yourself with something for at least an hour so that your mind has a chance to move on from "eat everything in sight" mode. It takes time for your brain to register that you've eaten, much longer than it takes to fill your stomach, so you have to be your stomach/brain's boss and tell it what you're going to do, not the other way around. Eat 12 times a day if you have to. I usually eat 7 to 11 times per day, myself, but sometimes what I'm eating is nothing more than 3/4 cup of homemade gelatin, which is only about 30 calories, or maybe 80 calories' worth of protein in my post-workout shake. It's a rare meal that breaks 350 calories.

I think the reason you find yourself snacking at 8:30 is because your body is ready to eat again and you should listen to it! Regardless of how many calories you've eaten, if you haven't met your nutrition needs your body will keep pressing you to eat more and more trying to get you to feed it the nutrition it needs, and it doesn't care how many calories you have to eat to do it. If there's extra, so much the better; your body's happy to hold onto that for later.

So if you want to avoid that, you've got to work to make the calories you eat as nutrient-dense as possible. Almond flour, celery, cauliflower and cheese aren't going to cut it, I'm afraid. They're wonderfully nutritious and healthy and I encourage you to continue them, but if you're minimizing carbs and calories, they need some supporting players to help fill you up and pump in the vitamins/minerals.

We have a term we use here-- MEMAR: Measure, experiment, measure, adjust, repeat. Let's try something new, see what the results are, and adjust from there, shall we? And by the way, I'm so glad not to be the only chick here now!!!

marochka_raduga wrote:They don't call me The Spinach Assassin for nothing.

Damn right. Spinach-massacring freak. Everybody knows broccoli is the one true vegetable.

We have a term we use here-- MEMAR: Measure, experiment, measure, adjust, repeat.

I think I invented it, but I think it was Michelle who acronym-ized it. Regardless, here's what that advice means in detail:

• Measure: Take baselines. Get your weight, body fat, and any other stats you care to track down pat. Don't allow your ignorance of what you should be measuring, or exactly how you're supposed to do it, get you down. Even an inaccurate measure when you're starting is better than no measurement at all.
• Experiment. Look, this is your body. It's your science project. Nobody's going to hold your hand the whole way through. If you don't have the discipline to do it the way you think you should, then try something you can live with for a while. If you keep following MEMAR for the rest of your life, you'll keep improving, or at least know exactly when and why you back-tracked. Plan a specific time for your experiment, and the book-ended Measurements will provide you your results so you know if it's working or not. Suggested length of experiment: at least several weeks at a time, because bodies adjust slowly.
• Measure. That which cannot be measured cannot be improved. Take second measurements to compare to the first at some point-in-time along the experiment. Daily is probably too short, as is weekly, but every couple of weeks to every month is probably sufficient time to see changes (Mark McManus suggests 10 weeks) and decide if you want to:
• Adjust. In addition to tweaking your program to suit your body, your body changes over time. For instance, I can tolerate a brief carb-up now, when seven months ago that would send me on a week-long carb binge. Adjust as few variables as possible, then:
• Repeat. Take a break if you need to, but get back on the horse and MEMAR all over again. My preferred break is 1 week where I don't track my food intake religiously (though I still eat healthy), don't hit the gym at all, and allow my body to reset once every 10-12 weeks.

Welcome to the forums. Good luck in your journey, and try to split those calories up into a 12-hour window so you don't get hungry and crave snacks!

--Matt B.

redgiki wrote:Everybody knows broccoli is the one true vegetable.

Gram for gram, spinach has few carbs and calories, more potassium, vitamin A, calcium, iron, manganese, magnesium, and more. Oh, and it fills you up better.

I win!

Thanks to all of you for your very thorough and informative replies.

To clarify to those questions some of you raised in my original post, I am around 5'6, and those 30g of carbs that I cited in my food list yesterday were net carbs.

I took my various measurements this morning and wound up with a projected body fat percentage of 18-19%, assuming that my measurements were accurate. After getting this rough percentage, I used Mark's formula to calculate my daily protein needs in order to build muscle and arrived at 140-1g. Spinach Assassin, thanks especially for your own stats and numbers. They were very helpful to me and enabled me to get a better understanding of what numbers I should shoot for. My own protein requirements seem kind of high to me and I'm slightly concerned that this much protein will compromise my low-carbing, but I will nonetheless give it a shot in the spirit of experimenting

In order to get a better idea of *when* to eat (at what time throughout the day), would a couple of people please post their eating schedules here? Spinach Assassin, I'm particularly interested in seeing your eating schedule/daily meal list. This is basically the only place where I can get information from another woman on these matters!

About the nutrients: I like very much what you guys have said about needing to eat as nutrient-rich food as possible and will make an effort to incorporate better vegetables into my diet. I ordinarily enjoy a big salad for lunch comprised of about 3/4 of a head of romaine lettuce, chopped red bell peppers, some cucumber and 1/2 of an avocado, which I douse with olive oil. Still, though, my nutrient numbers are far from perfect. I take a twice-daily calcium supplement to make up for my lack of Vitamin D and magnesium, but yesterday, for example, my nutrient levels of things like Copper, Potassium, and Thiamin are all lacking. What's the consensus on taking a daily multi-vitamin just to cover one's bases?

In regards to broccoli, last year, I was absolutely crazy about it and literally at anywhere from 16-32 ounces of it/day for months at a time. Somewhere along the line, though, I got all broccoli-ed out and now I regretfully can't stand it. Cauliflower is my new favorite vegetable, but it isn't a miracle-worker.


That's all for now. I appreciate all of the insight you guys have provided me so far and look forward to absorbing more of everyone's wisdom in the future!

Gram for gram, spinach has few carbs and calories, more potassium, vitamin A, calcium, iron, manganese, magnesium, and more. Oh, and it fills you up better.

I win!

broccoli,raw: http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/vege ... cts/2356/2
spinach,raw: http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/vege ... cts/2626/2

Ha, it's a close fight but spinach wins(nutritionally).

But eating those smelly alien broccoli bastards is more hardcore!

undertaker610 wrote:But eating those smelly alien broccoli bastards is more hardcore!

Muahaha! Nobody is a more hardcore eater than me!! Show me somebody who drinks broccoli smoothies and then they'll be more hardcore than I am.

This is my next project, mark my words.

marochka_raduga wrote:Gram for gram, spinach has few carbs and calories, more potassium, vitamin A, calcium, iron, manganese, magnesium, and more. Oh, and it fills you up better. I win!

Curses, foiled again!

undertaker610 wrote: Ha, it's a close fight but spinach wins(nutritionally). But eating those smelly alien broccoli bastards is more hardcore!

Hah, bonus brownie points for being "hardcore"! Yeah!

OK, so here's my typical day of eating. I'm a 6'1", 215-lb, 35-year-old male, so your mileage and quantities will certainly vary. I'm also a bit of a "grazer", so I tend to just keep a snack at hand and slowly eat it all day long. Nutritional targets: 200g-225g protein per day, fats 100-140g, carbs <30g, average somewhere around 1800-2000 calories to keep losing fat. Maintenance is around 2600-2700 calories.

• 06:30 Breakfast. Two eggs and some other source of protein. Sometimes I do extra egg whites, whey protein, sausage, steak, whatever I'm craving. I love my veggies, but I can't stand 'em first thing in the morning. 24 ounce glass of water. I usually plan the rest of my eating-day and pack my lunch at this time over breakfast, entering everything I plan to eat into Livestrong.com's The Daily Plate so that I can be certain to hit my nutritional targets.
• 07:30 Off to work. I usually make up a protein shake with 50g-100g of protein when I get to work so that I have a shake to sip throughout the day. Yeah, I know I'm only supposed to have one shake a day as post-workout, but I'm lazy and have a hard time meeting my protein targets without this sip-all-day supplementation.
• 09:30 Usually a handful of nuts, edamame, or some tuna with mayo, and usually some sort of veggie. Mostly broccoli, but sometimes raw spinach or celery with almond butter/peanut butter/soy-nut butter/whatever. I like to mix ground flaxseed on my salads and in my mixed foods because my LDL is slightly higher than I'd like, and flaxseed has a surprisingly huge impact on overall LDL levels.
• 11:30 Lunch. This is usually my big-ass salad: a whole green pepper, mounds of spinach and lettuce, 20g-40g of protein in the form of meat of some sort (tuna, salmon, beef, turkey, pork, pre-cooked shrimp, whatever), and perhaps a tablespoon or two of dressing if I have the allowance that day. Ground flaxseed on here, too, if I remember.
• 12:00-3:00 Snacking! I have walnuts, macadamia nuts, cans of tuna, celery with nut butters, seasoned chicken breast, leftover beef, asparagus, miscellaneous veggies, whatever. If I haven't eaten it already, I'm usually done with snacks by 3:00 PM or 3:30. I want to make sure I get at least one good protein source in around 2PM or so, usually that's just a whole can of tuna.
• 6:00 PM Dinner. Whatever my wife, children, or I cook up. I aim for around 30g of protein in this meal, and whatever allotment of 30g of net carbs I have left in the form of vegetables. This is either a salad, or I love sautéed veggies over various meats!
• 8:00 Gym. 25g of whey protein in a 28 oz blender bottle that I sip during my workout.
• 9:30 Home, get ready for bed, 25g more whey protein.

Now, I know that I'm overdoing the whey protein a little bit right now. I fluctuate; if I take the time on Sunday to prepare a wide selection of meats on my George Foreman indoor grille, I create ready-made 100g snack packs of protein in the form of "real food" that I eat for the rest of the week. I actually really prefer that; I should go home tonight and make a bunch more! Whole, real foods are much better than anything refined for my body IMHO, including whey protein.

Supplementation: whey protein, 6-9 caplets (around 60-90 calories) of fish oil supplements per day, though I try to eat plenty of chicken and fish whenever possible.

This is actually like 8 "meals", but because I just pack a bag and graze all day while trying to stretch my protein shake out for 6-8 hours, it doesn't feel like meals. Except that gap between 3PM and 6PM when I'm usually downright HUNGRY by dinner time!

Carb-up days are much more "anything goes". I don't allow myself much (if any) wheat or dairy on carb-up days, and focus on low-fat foods, but I don't stress about it, and aim to be within 10% of my maintenance calories (2700 calories). Keeping the protein flowing via that same Blender Bottle to sip from all day long helps keep cravings under control.

Hope that helps.

--Matt B.