Bodybuilding Forums

So I am trying this anabolic MANS diet and loving it. At last after years of eating nothing but "beige" (bread, pasta etc.) I have started this diet with the aims of dropping excess fat and building some lean muscle, and already, after just a few weeks I am seeing results, and I'm feeling better.

BUT.....

My gf has decided to blast it, because she tried a similar keto diet a few years back and actually gained weight. Here is her take on it, and I'd be interested to get your take on it Mark. She actually knows a bit about nutrition (or think she knows ) so its hard for me to argue with her.

Its like, I know she is talking shite on this one, but I haven't got the expertise to prove it, hence, me posting this.

So help me out here dude!!


Here is her "expert" opinion:

I still think this is total BS.

Here's why: you drain your bloodstream of glycogen (i.e. produced from any form of sugar/carb intake) which is exhausing and makes you grumpy and weak (as Dave very correctly said). This takes 3 days and your body then switches over to burning it's own fat for energy. On a high fat diet the 3 days you're going into ketosis (the process of burning your own fat for energy) you're loading up on fats while your body is still going to it's own bloodstream for energy - thus, you're piling on fat (and perhaps burning a small percentage of it) WHILE you have an unusually low amount of energy and are naturally burning less.

Then, you've got two golden days where you're feeling stronger and your body is in full ketosis burning fat for energy - but you're STILL loading up on fat... so in actual fact, you're burning more of what you're taking in rather than your own. (Keep in mind also that fat has the highest amount of calories per gram - so if you're talking about slimming down, you're talking about a caloric defecit, not a surplus.)

Then comes the worst bit of this - you're dying for carbs by this point, and as you then are 'allowed' to have them, you eat the hell out of some haribos/bread/pasta which spikes the amount of insulin and glycogen in your blood stream. Your body then has a surplus of glycogen, which if unused will go straight to fat (and if you're eating a lot of carbs, it's likely to). You then have the excruciating 3 days of coming down again (which is even worse now because you've probably got a large amount of glycogen to drain from your bloodstream), you're exhausted all over again, you've got another 3 days of high fat intake/low energy, and the whole process repeats.

The only way I can even fathom this working is with a high amount of exercise to burn off the fat you're consuming going into ketosis (potentially unrealistic, because you're feeling weak) and a consistently high amount of exercise the days you're eating carbs, just so you don't have all that glycogen sitting around in your blood stream... which means 5 days a week at the gym. And to be honest, if you're usuing your own fat for energy, the days you're in ketosis you're probably going to want to kick it at the gym to burn off more faster!

So, to that end, I think this is a load of shit and that if you want to lose weight you need to have a high amount of exercise and a low amount of carbs/fat.

Thoughts?

Actually my first thought is that your friend doesn't have much respect for you and your choices. They even sound like one of those people that sabotage others because of their own unhappiness and fear that you will get healthy, be more attractive and leave them behind. I would say that you need to do what works for you and they should be happy for you and let you make your own choices or mistakes (if that is what they think it is) as long as no one is getting hurt.

It sounds like you are doing great! KUTGW!

I agree with your GF partially. What I think she's missing out on is the fact that fat is far more satiating than carbs. You end up feeling full sooner and staying that way longer because your blood sugar stays flat instead of spiking (like it does with carbs). Yeah, the three days are hell, but there are tricks to make cut those three days down to less. The first is to deplete your glycogen stores faster (high rep weight training, etc). The second (based on rat studies, it may be a long shot) is to use sesame oil (supposedly helps get you into ketosis faster).

I think shes also missing out on the fact that without insulin, you cannot store fat. You can eat 2 times your daily calorie intake and not gain weight (I've heard this mentioned more than once on low carb blogs, forums, etc). If your GF gained weight, then she was doing something wrong. No offense to your GF. Was she on her period when she gained weight? That will do it every time. Water fluctionations are very problematic in women and can make it seem like they gain five pounds literally over night. Also, was she strictly low-carb?

She's right that by carb loading on weekends, you are putting yourself through three shitty days every week. Not fun. What I've seen others recommend is low carb except around workouts. It depends on what your goals are. I'm in pure fat loss mode so I'm low carb 24/7 until I hit my goal weight.

Never, ever, tell your GF she is wrong. Just tell her that it is working for you right now, so you'll stick with it for the time being. You still wanna get laid, right?

Well I think there are three things wrong with your girlfriend's argument:

1. She focuses solely on the losing fat aspect when this diet is designed to gain muscle and lose fat.
2. She has an misunderstanding on how much energy the bloodstream can hold.
3. She is exaggerating the transition time to a ketosis state.

Tristero's Girlfriend wrote:you drain your bloodstream of glycogen (i.e. produced from any form of sugar/carb intake) which is exhausing and makes you grumpy and weak

This is only temporary and often takes less and less time to transition each week from my experience. And you shouldn't feel weak, and if you do, you need to increase the amount of carbs.

Tristero's Girlfriend wrote:This takes 3 days and your body then switches over to burning it's own fat for energy.

It doesn't take 3 days for everyone and for me I don't even feel a transition phase so it must happen in one day. A study "showed that on the high-protein low-carbohydrate diet the volunteers became ketogenic within 1-2 days of starting this diet." (link)

Tristero's Girlfriend wrote:On a high fat diet the 3 days you're going into ketosis (the process of burning your own fat for energy) you're loading up on fats while your body is still going to it's own bloodstream for energy - thus, you're piling on fat (and perhaps burning a small percentage of it) WHILE you have an unusually low amount of energy and are naturally burning less.

Taken from a health site: "The bloodstream can hold about an hour of glucose for energy." (link) So from this I can't see how for THREE DAYS you are using your bloodstream for energy (from the carbs) since it can only supply it for an hour. Since you go into ketosis quickly, you are not piling on fat but burning it.

Tristero's Girlfriend wrote:you're STILL loading up on fat... so in actual fact, you're burning more of what you're taking in rather than your own. (Keep in mind also that fat has the highest amount of calories per gram - so if you're talking about slimming down, you're talking about a caloric defecit, not a surplus.)

Well yes you are going to burn more fat of what you take in than your own, unless you go under your calorie requirement by 50% which is dangerous. Also, her statement of fat has more calories per gram and needing to have a calorie deficit sounds like she is suggesting we count our grams and not our calories. So she sounds like if one eats 400g of carbs a day, and then they are going on this diet, they have to eat 400g of fat. But this is wrong since you would need to eat much less fat (in grams) to meet your calories than by carbs. Also, as javacody said - fat is more satiating.

Tristero's Girlfriend wrote:you eat the hell out of some haribos/bread/pasta which spikes the amount of insulin and glycogen in your blood stream. Your body then has a surplus of glycogen, which if unused will go straight to fat (and if you're eating a lot of carbs, it's likely to).

That is true and since it is only done for a 36 hour period is isn't that damaging. Also the boost you'll get from Insulin Like Growth Factors will increase muscle growth, which is the main focus. This fat storage on the carb-up period is the reason why if you are specifically focusing on losing fat, you shouldn't carb up ever.

Tristero's Girlfriend wrote:You then have the excruciating 3 days of coming down again (which is even worse now because you've probably got a large amount of glycogen to drain from your bloodstream), you're exhausted all over again, you've got another 3 days of high fat intake/low energy, and the whole process repeats.

Again proven that you can only hold an hour's worth of energy and one usually goes ketogenic in 1-2 days.

Tristero's Girlfriend wrote:The only way I can even fathom this working is with a high amount of exercise to burn off the fat you're consuming going into ketosis (potentially unrealistic, because you're feeling weak) and a consistently high amount of exercise the days you're eating carbs, just so you don't have all that glycogen sitting around in your blood stream... which means 5 days a week at the gym.

True that if one is doing HIIT it will offset the fat gain from carb-ups and will be easy to lose fat. Plus if you are following Mark's workout plan, you are already at the gym five days a week.

Tristero's Girlfriend wrote:So, to that end, I think this is a load of shit and that if you want to lose weight you need to have a high amount of exercise and a low amount of carbs/fat.

The funny thing is that she focused on losing weight the whole argument when this diet is designed to lose fat and gain muscle. If she purely wanted to lose fat, she should have never carbed-up. Also I got the feeling that your girlfriend doesn't like cardio or working out much, and if she didn't do neither of them on the diet frequently or effectively, then I can see why the carb-up "days" (more than one?) would cause her to gain fat.

i hate long sessions of cardio and 30 reps of anything. and i hate feeling hungry. so Mark's philosophy works very well for me. i unlike most people do not enjoy my carb-up day (only Saturday). i eat only non-starchy carbs and do not eat fast-food. and still the carbs (being fruit and veggies) still sends my digestion into a storm. the next day ,yes i am tired,but am feeling less bloated and more stable. by monday i feel full of energy and have stopped crashing. so to all the females out there.... we always envy guys, why not try what works so well for them.

There is no use in trying to convince someone how or why a particular diet works if they've already tried it and couldn't stick to it and/or did not see positive results from it.

It has been proven that excess carbs and sugars play a huge factor in weight gain, and I don't think she would argue that limiting their consumption is beneficial for fat loss in just about anyone. However, if she attempted a diet similar to MANS and couldn't stick to it or failed in some way, convince her how great it is all you want but it still doesn't change the fact that it's not something she is going to be able to incorporate into her lifestyle.

It's not always about what's the absolute best or fastest way to do something. Fitness and nutrition to me is about living healthy, looking sexy, and being happy. There may be a better or faster way to do what your doing, but there's no point in doing it if it makes you miserable or affects your life negatively.

If your girlfriend does not believe that MANS works for her and she has tried a similar diet already with miserable results, then fine let her do the diet that she thinks works for her, she sounds like she knows enough about nutrition to put together a good diet on her own anyway.

ok guys. You all heard the phrase "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned..."

Well, the lady is scorned and here is her reply:

Flest wrote:Well I think there are three things wrong with your girlfriend's argument:

1. She focuses solely on the losing fat aspect when this diet is designed to gain muscle and lose fat.
2. She has an misunderstanding on how much energy the bloodstream can hold.
3. She is exaggerating the transition time to a ketosis state.

Tristero's Girlfriend wrote:you drain your bloodstream of glycogen (i.e. produced from any form of sugar/carb intake) which is exhausing and makes you grumpy and weak

flest]This is only temporary and often takes less and less time to transition each week from my experience. And you shouldn't feel weak, and if you do, you need to increase the amount of carbs. [/quote]

Going into ketosis is the process of draining your bloodstream of carbs. The only reason you'd take less and less time each week is becasue you have less glycogen due to eating less carbs. It's not an evolutionary process like you make it sound. Obviously if you increase the amount of carbs, you're not going into ketosis and this defeats the whole point because your body will still have insulin to store your fat.

[quote="Tristero's Girlfriend wrote:This takes 3 days and your body then switches over to burning it's own fat for energy.

flest]It doesn't take 3 days for everyone and for me I don't even feel a transition phase so it must happen in one day. A study "showed that on the high-protein low-carbohydrate diet the volunteers became ketogenic within 1-2 days of starting this diet." (link)[/quote]

Yeah, obviously if you're not eating a lot of carbs (i.e. high protein/low carb diet) you're going to go into ketosis quicker because you've got less glycogen to drain out of your blood stream - the point is that most people are NOT on a low carb diet before they go into ketosis, so the transition is longer and more difficult. If you want to gradually do it by reducing carbs a little bit and then fully, naturally the transition time is going to be less.

[quote="Tristero's Girlfriend wrote:On a high fat diet the 3 days you're going into ketosis (the process of burning your own fat for energy) you're loading up on fats while your body is still going to it's own bloodstream for energy - thus, you're piling on fat (and perhaps burning a small percentage of it) WHILE you have an unusually low amount of energy and are naturally burning less.

flest]Taken from a health site: "The bloodstream can hold about an hour of glucose for energy." (link) So from this I can't see how for THREE DAYS you are using your bloodstream for energy (from the carbs) since it can only supply it for an hour. Since you go into ketosis quickly, you are not piling on fat but burning it.
[/quote]

Here you contradict yourself. And you're wrong. You can not go into ketosis in an hour, as you've correctly said above... especially not after you've eaten carbs. And the body does not go straight to it's fat stores after an hour. So while you might be burning the fat you're eating, fat has more calories (i.e. energy) than carbs or protein, so you need to be burning at least what you're ingesting for it not to get stored (if you're not in ketosis) .To eat a lot of fat means you have to expend a lot of energy, and usually this isn't realistic for the average persons working day.

[quote="Tristero's Girlfriend wrote:you're STILL loading up on fat... so in actual fact, you're burning more of what you're taking in rather than your own. (Keep in mind also that fat has the highest amount of calories per gram - so if you're talking about slimming down, you're talking about a caloric defecit, not a surplus.)

flest]Well yes you are going to burn more fat of what you take in than your own, unless you go under your calorie requirement by 50% which is dangerous. Also, her statement of fat has more calories per gram and needing to have a calorie deficit sounds like she is suggesting we count our grams and not our calories. So she sounds like if one eats 400g of carbs a day, and then they are going on this diet, they have to eat 400g of fat. But this is wrong since you would need to eat much less fat (in grams) to meet your calories than by carbs. Also, as javacody said - fat is more satiating. [/quote]

I'm saying is that you need to cut down on what you're eating if you're having a lot of fat - I'm not suggesting any percentages or that your fat:carb swap should be 1:1, that's ridiculous. I'm saying that in order to burn YOUR OWN fat, you need to cut down on what you're ingesting otherwise you're just burning what you're eating.


[quote="Tristero's Girlfriend wrote:you eat the hell out of some haribos/bread/pasta which spikes the amount of insulin and glycogen in your blood stream. Your body then has a surplus of glycogen, which if unused will go straight to fat (and if you're eating a lot of carbs, it's likely to).[/quot]

flest]That is true and since it is only done for a 36 hour period is isn't that damaging. Also the boost you'll get from Insulin Like Growth Factors will increase muscle growth, which is the main focus. This fat storage on the carb-up period is the reason why if you are specifically focusing on losing fat, you shouldn't carb up ever.[/quote]

Define 'that damaging' ? If it's in any way damaging, then why would you carb up? If fat gives you all the energy you need, then your muscles should be able to use this as energy to grow.

[quote="Tristero's Girlfriend wrote:You then have the excruciating 3 days of coming down again (which is even worse now because you've probably got a large amount of glycogen to drain from your bloodstream), you're exhausted all over again, you've got another 3 days of high fat intake/low energy, and the whole process repeats.

flest]Again proven that you can only hold an hour's worth of energy and one usually goes ketogenic in 1-2 days.[/quote]

Again, 'proven' is totally subjective based on the amount of carbs you've had and thus the amount of glycogen in your bloodstream. It's impossible to say ketosis takes exactly x days, but a general rule is 3 for an average, balanced diet. This whole hour quote is a misquoted and out of context.

[quote="Tristero's Girlfriend wrote:The only way I can even fathom this working is with a high amount of exercise to burn off the fat you're consuming going into ketosis (potentially unrealistic, because you're feeling weak) and a consistently high amount of exercise the days you're eating carbs, just so you don't have all that glycogen sitting around in your blood stream... which means 5 days a week at the gym.

flest]True that if one is doing HIIT it will offset the fat gain from carb-ups and will be easy to lose fat. Plus if you are following Mark's workout plan, you are already at the gym five days a week.[/quote]




[quote="Tristero's Girlfriend wrote:So, to that end, I think this is a load of shit and that if you want to lose weight you need to have a high amount of exercise and a low amount of carbs/fat.

Sure, I'm not talking about bulking up on muscle - meat heads are incredibly unattractive and wouldn't want any boyfriend of mine to look like he was overcompensating.
[

This is developing into a real sh1tstorm here!!!! Sorry guys!!

Its an interesting argument though....

What your girlfriend says has merit, but she seems to be arguing something about the MANS diet that it never claimed to be. MANS is a muscle building diet best suited for a very active resistance training program like a 5-day split. It's not the best diet for straight up fat loss in less active people, I don't think anybody claimed that's what it was. You wouldn't need the carb up days if you didn't have a very active strength training workout regimen to go with it.

the point is that most people are NOT on a low carb diet before they go into ketosis, so the transition is longer and more difficult.

I agree but I was using a study of obese men that weren't a diet and then put onto a low carb one. Ketosis came for all of them in 1-2 days. I just think that your 3 day rule is high. If it takes you 3 days or more to go into ketosis when you are on the diet for awhile, you should eat less carbs on your carb-up day or reduce the carb-up time. You even say yourself that while on the diet, it will "take less and less time each week becasue you have less glycogen due to eating less carbs." So only the beginning of the diet should be that difficult.

And you're wrong.

I was right that the bloodstream can only hold an hour of energy but there is also glycogen storages that the body uses. So sorry for the misrepresentation.

To eat a lot of fat means you have to expend a lot of energy, and usually this isn't realistic for the average persons working day

Not necessarily. Once you calculate your daily calorie expenditure you have to eat under that to ensure that you are burning your own fat. You make it sound impossible to have a calorie deficit when all you have to do is not eat as much or exercise more (if you have the time). This isn't hard since fat is very satiating. Also (for fat loss aspect) the exercise doesn't have to be much and could be as simple as walking for most people. You could always wake up 15-20 minutes earlier for a walk or jog right? Also you are forgetting the whole point by stating "this isn't realistic for the average persons working day" when you are building muscle by working out. If you don't have any time to work out, why would you go on a bodybuilding diet?

Define 'that damaging' ? If it's in any way damaging, then why would you carb up? If fat gives you all the energy you need, then your muscles should be able to use this as energy to grow.

In retrospect, damaging was not the best word. A better word would be detrimental. For a person on the diet for purely fat loss, there is no reason to carb-up since the excess carbs could cause you to gain fat. The carb-up days are meant for boosting muscle growth.

I'm saying that in order to burn YOUR OWN fat, you need to cut down on what you're ingesting otherwise you're just burning what you're eating.

I completely agree but I don't see how that argues against this strategy. Also taken from the study, “We showed that the volunteers on the ketogenic diet reduced their energy intake without increasing their hunger and this was a very important factor in their ability to stick to the diet.”


You say that the Ketosis transition is long, uncomfortable, and tiring. Yes, it is long for some people and they should compensate by reducing their carb-up time or reducing the amount of carbs they eat on carb-up days. Yes, it is uncomfortable but that stage eventually passes and you get the wonderful benefits once you cross the threshold. No, it shouldn't be tiring after you go into ketosis because you should eat the minimum amount of carbs each day to stay at your optimal energy. Also, if one could not handle low carbs and needs many carbs a day to stay at optimal energy, then a diet focused on the Glycemic Index is much better.

You say that you need a high amount of exercise. This is true since it's purpose is to gain muscle while reducing any fat gains. You also say you need a "high amount of exercise to burn off the fat." But why does it have to be "high" when you are ensuring that you have a calorie deficit? You will need a "high" amount of exercise only if you eat too much.

The diet you are comparing it to is differently goal-oriented. This is meant to gain muscle and lose fat/reduce fat gain. It seems that your diet was focused to lose fat and I think it is a little unfair to compare a fat-loss diet with a muscle-building diet.


Your boyfriend said earlier that you went on a similar diet and gained "weight". I want to ask, was it a bodybuilding diet you were on? If not and it was a fat-loss diet, why did it have carb-up days? For purely a fat loss diet I would not see the point in having carb up days (as it is meant to boost muscle growth and the insulin spike could cause some fat gain). So that might be the whole reason why you actually gained "weight". Another question, did you have your body fat percentage taken? How do you know if you gained fat or muscle?


You commented back on every point except the most important one - the last one where I stated it was a diet to GAIN MUSCLE!!! (explaining the carb-up days)