One other exercise to add to my shoulders?

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Re: One other exercise to add to my shoulders?

Postby LALA on Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:31 pm

Hey stickupkid

I'm just having a laugh bro, don't be apologising it's all about opinions and what works and what doesn't work everyones advice is crucial yours and mine included on every topic in these columns, i learn something new in here everyday in cases where i think i'm doing something right where i'm actually doing it wrong, I AM BY NO MEANS AN EXPERT and this is the beauty of this website everyone needs help and 99% of us get it in here without being afraid to ASK THAT QUESTION OR GIVE THAT OPINION, it's fantastic it really is, either way theres a right answer in here for everyone i'm just a regular guy doing what we all do bro giving advice, opinions alternatives i respect you bro i'm just having a laugh with you it's hard to see it sometimes when looking at black and white on a screen but it's all light hearted :mrgreen:
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Re: One other exercise to add to my shoulders?

Postby stickupkid on Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:10 pm

Nicely said :)
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Re: One other exercise to add to my shoulders?

Postby JoH on Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:15 am

OK, so I didn't like the overall consensus that your options on shoulders were front and lateral raises, dumbbell and barbell presses, and flys. So I did some research, cuz, really, would you expect anything else from me?

Admittedly, I didn't find much we didn't already know. Your shoulder is a highly complicated bit of biological machinery designed to allow the arm to move with a huge range of motion. Your deltoids, pectorals, triceps and trapezoids all play a role in this, and this is why isolation/targeted exercises for the deltoids are so few - it's simply too hard to minimize involvement of the other muscle groups that are also attached to the same joint. Not to mention, to hit just one head, or even to hit all three heads, you're looking at one of a handful of specific movements....

    Flexion exercises (think frontal raise) and abduction exercises (lateral movement of the arms away from the body) will both hit your anterior and medial heads.
    Transverse abduction (i.e. bent over lateral raise) will engage the posterior and lateral heads.
    Transverse extension (think pull backwards, elbows out, moving in a horizontal plane at shoulder level) will engage almost solely the posterior heads.
And that's about it. That whole big huge range of motion through your shoulder joint is mostly moved by muscles other than your deltoids - your traps, lats, and pecs. Outside these planes of motion, you start engaging these other groups more than your delts, which is awesome if that's what you want to do, but that's not what we want at all, now, is it?

Your flexion exercises are pretty obvious - front raises and the myriad of variations on them. Dumbbell and barbell, both to shoulder-height and all the way up. Abduction exercises, same damn thing but to the side. You can sub out cables for freeweights for any of these and lose no efficacy, just be mindful of where the cable will run from top to bottom of the rep - you don't want to get tangled in it or otherwise do strange things to its angle. You can combine the two motions with moves like Cuban presses - start with the shoulders rolled forward, weight at about thigh-height, and left the arms kind of like an upright row. When your elbows are at shoulder height, rotate the arm to bring the weight from below to above the shoulder, and complete the movement like an ordinary dumbbell overhead press. You will hear some folks advocate these horrid behind-the-head deals - but I don't. The bottom of the rep - behind the head - is a huge stress on your rotator cuff and AC joint. Enough weight for your deltoids to reach failure is enough to be of serious concern of damaging the ligaments, especially once you do actually reach failure. The reverse is also true - light enough to not jeopardize the joint is probably not enough to reach failure in 8-12. Be it shoulder presses, raises, or lat pull downs, extreme caution is advised for exercises that demand weight be held this way at the top or bottom of the rep - or better still, don't do exercises that call for it at all.

Transverse abduction exercises come in two flavors. The first is face down (be it bent over or actually lying on a bench), start with the arms down straight, elbows pointed out and slightly bent, and move the weight by rotating the arm from straight down to straight out. Cables are going to be somewhat more effective because the angle of the force of resistance does not change relative to the joint's plane of motion. With dumbbells, the force is always straight down from the hand, so there's a massive shift in the angle relative to the joint's plane of motion from bottom to top of the rep. It's the flat bench dumbbell chest fly problem flipped upside down. If staring at the rubberized mat isn't your bag, the other option is to do these upright. Using a cable tower or crossover, start by holding the arm straight out, elbow slightly bent and pointing away from the body, and an overhand grip on a cable handle, and extend the arm outward until it is out straight. Either alternate arms with a cable tower, or you can do both at the same time using a crossover.

Transverse extensions look a lot like rows - what changes is the plane across which you move the weight. You draw the weight toward the body at shoulder-height, like row to neck, rear delt row, or face pull.

Personally (and feel free to disagree), and Mark has indirectly stated the same, I feel it's very easy to overtrain your anterior and posterior heads because of everything they're involved in. All chest exercises hit the anterior head. A lot of bicep exercises involve the anterior deltoid as well - though frequently unintentionally. Plus you hit the anterior deltoid head-on on your shoulder days, no matter which iteration of THT you're doing via overhead presses and frontal raises (if you're subbing them out based on the Exercise Bank). Your rear delts, well, they just don't need it. For one, they're little, because biomechanically speaking, they don't do a hell of a lot. Yes, there are eleven billion modifications of ways to hit them. No, you don't need to do a damn one. See the lil footnote there from Mark on the shoulder section of the Exercise Bank? Mark calls out rowing movements, but any kind of downward pull will hit them, too. Truth be told, back day you're hitting your rear delts really, really frigging hard. Pull downs, pull-overs, rows, the million different types of pull-ups all hit your rear delts to varying degrees. Bent-over lateral raises do engage the lateral head, which makes them somewhat useful for something other than overtraining, and really, you have better options on your traditional lateral raises, and Mark's variation on cable laterals.

TL;DR - Limited quantity of exercises is caused by limited biomechanical purposes for engaging solely the deltoids. Effective movements tend to be variations on front and lateral raises, and on overhead presses. No clue why folks have gotten so creative with the rear delts, cuz they don't freaking need it, but if you've ever wanted to smack your self in the face with a cable attachment here's your chance.
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Re: One other exercise to add to my shoulders?

Postby JohnOregon on Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:12 pm

So I started this thread with this question. Simple question.
But I just realized that I meant overhead barbell press (using Smith machine), not overhead dumbbell press (I'm the dumbbell here).

JohnOregon wrote:Currently doing super sets of Lateral raises and then immediately seated overhead dumbbell press.
3 sets (a set is both)
Is there another exercise I could do after this?


I finally decided and posted a decision, but it got lost because someone else was posting a huge book. (I am saving and studying that book later).

Here is my 2nrd exercise (yes I understand laterals/barbells are one)
I am adding overhead press using cables. There is a Freemotion machine that has this and also hints at leaning forward off the back of seat (it's inclined, so you are upright if you do this). This simulates very closely Mark's last exercise on his 2.0 shoulder day I think.
so onwards and upwards. rep to failure.
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Re: One other exercise to add to my shoulders?

Postby JoH on Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:42 am

JohnOregon wrote:So I started this thread with this question. Simple question.
But I just realized that I meant overhead barbell press (using Smith machine), not overhead dumbbell press (I'm the dumbbell here).

JohnOregon wrote:Currently doing super sets of Lateral raises and then immediately seated overhead dumbbell press.
3 sets (a set is both)
Is there another exercise I could do after this?


I finally decided and posted a decision, but it got lost because someone else was posting a huge book. (I am saving and studying that book later).

Here is my 2nrd exercise (yes I understand laterals/barbells are one)
I am adding overhead press using cables. There is a Freemotion machine that has this and also hints at leaning forward off the back of seat (it's inclined, so you are upright if you do this). This simulates very closely Mark's last exercise on his 2.0 shoulder day I think.
so onwards and upwards. rep to failure.


Jervis crisco I misunderstood the question... :shock: thought you were looking for novel movement, not just different equipment! No matter, hopefully the novella will be useful info at some point...

Anyway, I know the machine of which you speak. Would be freaking awesome for super-setting shoulders, could move from laterals to front or overhead by just flipping which handle is in what hand and away you go. Any rate, yup, if you meant you're doing super-set lateral and then seated overhead barbell, yup, overhead with cables would be somewhat different (isolateral vs bilateral). Could mix in dumbbell/barbell/cable front raises, too, if you get bored at some point. Sorry for the unnecessary wall of text, next time I'll make sure I'm answering the right damn question... :lol:
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Re: One other exercise to add to my shoulders?

Postby JohnOregon on Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:36 am

don't stop. it's all good.
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Re: One other exercise to add to my shoulders?

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